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  1. Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth
  2. The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI)
The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI)

The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI)

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth · Dec 7, 2025

Surge AI's CEO on bootstrapping to $1B. He discusses the power of quality data, critiques AI 'slop,' and offers contrarian startup advice.

AI Models Will Differentiate on Personality and Values, Not Just Intelligence

As models mature, their core differentiator will become their underlying personality and values, shaped by their creators' objective functions. One model might optimize for user productivity by being concise, while another optimizes for engagement by being verbose.

The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI) thumbnail

The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI)

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth·2 months ago

AI Model Quality Depends on Subjective "Taste," Not Just Objective Metrics

The best AI models are trained on data that reflects deep, subjective qualities—not just simple criteria. This "taste" is a key differentiator, influencing everything from code generation to creative writing, and is shaped by the values of the frontier lab.

The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI) thumbnail

The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI)

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth·2 months ago

Training AI Is More Like Raising a Child Than Labeling Data

The term "data labeling" minimizes the complexity of AI training. A better analogy is "raising a child," as the process involves teaching values, creativity, and nuanced judgment. This reframe highlights the deep responsibility of shaping the "objective functions" for future AI.

The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI) thumbnail

The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI)

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth·2 months ago

Frontier AI Labs Optimize for "AI Slop" by Chasing Engagement and Leaderboards

Labs are incentivized to climb leaderboards like LM Arena, which reward flashy, engaging, but often inaccurate responses. This focus on "dopamine instead of truth" creates models optimized for tabloids, not for advancing humanity by solving hard problems.

The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI) thumbnail

The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI)

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth·2 months ago

Reject Pivoting; Build the One Company Only Your Unique Insight Can Create

Instead of chasing trends or pivoting every few weeks, founders should focus on a singular mission that stems from their unique expertise and conviction. This approach builds durable, meaningful companies rather than simply chasing valuations.

The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI) thumbnail

The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI)

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth·2 months ago

Surge AI Hit $1B Revenue Bootstrapped By Rejecting the Silicon Valley Playbook

Surge AI intentionally avoided VC funding and the "Silicon Valley game" of hype and fundraising. This forced them to build a 10x better product that grew via word-of-mouth, attracting customers who genuinely valued data quality instead of hype.

The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI) thumbnail

The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI)

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth·2 months ago

Simulated RL Environments Are the Next Frontier for Training Capable AI Agents

Beyond supervised fine-tuning (SFT) and human feedback (RLHF), reinforcement learning (RL) in simulated environments is the next evolution. These "playgrounds" teach models to handle messy, multi-step, real-world tasks where current models often fail catastrophically.

The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI) thumbnail

The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI)

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth·2 months ago

Elite Teams Can Move Faster by Firing 90% of People to Eliminate Distractions

Drawing from experience at big tech, Surge AI's founder believes large organizations slow down top performers with distractions. By building a super-small, elite team, companies can achieve more with less overhead, a principle proven by Surge's own success.

The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI) thumbnail

The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI)

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth·2 months ago

AI Benchmarks Are Gamed for PR and Full of Flawed Data, Masking Real Progress

Don't trust academic benchmarks. Labs often "hill climb" or game them for marketing purposes, which doesn't translate to real-world capability. Furthermore, many of these benchmarks contain incorrect answers and messy data, making them an unreliable measure of true AI advancement.

The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI) thumbnail

The 100-person AI lab that became Anthropic and Google's secret weapon | Edwin Chen (Surge AI)

Lenny's Podcast: Product | Career | Growth·2 months ago