/
© 2026 RiffOn. All rights reserved.

Get your free personalized podcast brief

We scan new podcasts and send you the top 5 insights daily.

  1. Long Strange Trip: CEO to CEO with Brian Halligan
  2. Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder
Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder

Long Strange Trip: CEO to CEO with Brian Halligan · May 21, 2026

Notion's CEO Ivan Zhao on refounding for the AI era. He discusses 'Jazz Mode' leadership, barbell-shaped hiring, and building a company.

In an AI World, Notion Hires for "Taste" and "Agency" Over Raw Capability

Notion's CEO argues that LLMs democratize raw capability (like writing or coding), making it a commodity. The most important hiring criteria are now "taste" (a strong value system and direction) and "agency" (the will to get things done).

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder thumbnail

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder

Long Strange Trip: CEO to CEO with Brian Halligan·a day ago

Notion CEO: Leaders Can't Delegate AI Understanding; They Must "Feel the AGI"

To successfully navigate the AI transition, leaders must engage in hands-on building and tinkering to develop an intuitive "feel" for the technology's potential. This direct experience is non-negotiable for finding new strategic paths for their company.

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder thumbnail

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder

Long Strange Trip: CEO to CEO with Brian Halligan·a day ago

Notion Fights Corporate "Calcification" By Acquiring Dozens of Founder-Led Teams

To prevent stagnation as the company scales, Notion intentionally acquires small, founder-led startups. These 50+ acquired founders act as internal disruptors, injecting entrepreneurial energy, breaking down bureaucracy, and constantly regenerating the company's innovative spirit.

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder thumbnail

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder

Long Strange Trip: CEO to CEO with Brian Halligan·a day ago

Notion's AI-Era Hiring Strategy: A Barbell of Junior and Senior Engineers

Notion skips mid-level hires, focusing on a "barbell" shape: junior engineers who are highly productive with AI tools and senior engineers who provide architectural direction and "taste," which AI lacks. This maximizes leverage and mentorship.

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder thumbnail

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder

Long Strange Trip: CEO to CEO with Brian Halligan·a day ago

Notion Eliminated Its CMO Role, Splitting Marketing into "Storytelling" and "Demand Gen"

To keep pace with rapid product changes, Notion dissolved the central CMO organization. It created two focused teams: "Storytelling," which sits close to product, and a "go-to-market" function serving sales. This decentralizes marketing and increases speed.

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder thumbnail

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder

Long Strange Trip: CEO to CEO with Brian Halligan·a day ago

Notion CEO: Building with AI is Like Brewing Beer, Not Engineering a Bridge

Classic software development is predictable, like engineering a bridge. AI development is experimental and unpredictable, like brewing beer. This requires a "technology-first" approach where cross-functional teams experiment together, rather than a linear, customer-first process.

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder thumbnail

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder

Long Strange Trip: CEO to CEO with Brian Halligan·a day ago

Notion CEO Ivan Zhao Builds a "Jazz Band," Not a "Marching Band" Culture

Zhao structures Notion to be like a jazz band, where talented individuals can improvise and shine, rather than a rigid marching band with a top-down structure. This model is better suited for the experimental, fast-changing nature of the AI era.

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder thumbnail

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder

Long Strange Trip: CEO to CEO with Brian Halligan·a day ago

Notion CEO on Startup Pain: Pre-PMF is Despair, Post-PMF is Everything on Fire

Ivan Zhao distinguishes between types of founder pain. The pre-product-market fit stage is defined by "despair"—a dark, directionless struggle. In contrast, the pain of scaling a successful product is like having "everything on fire," a chaotic but directed challenge.

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder thumbnail

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder

Long Strange Trip: CEO to CEO with Brian Halligan·a day ago

Notion CEO Ivan Zhao's Advice for Stuck Startups: Listen to Your Gut and Refound

Having refounded Notion twice, Zhao advises founders of sideways-moving companies to listen to their "inner body." A drastic reset, like shrinking the team to rebuild in a new location, is often a necessary and liberating move when you feel there's no way out.

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder thumbnail

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder

Long Strange Trip: CEO to CEO with Brian Halligan·a day ago

Notion's PLG-to-Enterprise Mistake: Stop Trying to Reinvent the Sales Playbook

Notion's CEO admits he wasted two years trying to invent a new "first principles" sales motion. He learned that product-led founders should adopt the classic enterprise sales playbook, as it's rooted in fundamental human psychology, and innovate elsewhere in the business.

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder thumbnail

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder

Long Strange Trip: CEO to CEO with Brian Halligan·a day ago

Notion CEO: Keep Financial Plans for Pacing, But Weekly AI Changes Make Product Roadmaps Obsolete

In the fast-moving AI era, Notion maintains a conservative financial plan to monitor its "running speed." However, formal product roadmaps are abandoned because technology and market shifts happen week-to-week, requiring a more fluid, improvisational approach to development.

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder thumbnail

Notion’s Ivan Zhao: The Refounder

Long Strange Trip: CEO to CEO with Brian Halligan·a day ago